The vote will only count until some judicial team decides to override the boice of the people again. It really doesn't matter what any of us think when they can just disregard it. It is also unfair to those that have married to be told it isnt valid then it is valid.

Item: The big guns of the gay rights supporters, and the generals of the religious right are out for blood; come November.
Tallyho and tallyhussassa! And may they anihililate each other. America has bigger problems than same sex marraige to be or not to be. E.g., billions of tax dollars being thrown into the war in Iraq every week. Middle class and working poor are hurting. Show me the way to the nearest rental of Nero fiddles.

Even if the religious right does win in November, it is clear that that win will not be long lasting.

A few year will pass by and a new referendum will be placed before the voters. Since only 50% is required to pass a constitutional amendment in California, the war has already been won by the gay rights movement.

My advice to those upset by same-sex marriage is to rethink their priorities as fighting losing battles is a waste of resources.

It may not be important to you, but I don't blame them for seeing it differently. How would you feel if there was an initiative on the ballot to make it illegal for you to be married to your spouse?

To Jackie: With all respect, I really would suggest learning more about our form of government. Judicial checks and balances are an important part of American political tradition. You act as though our state supreme court justices are in no way accountable to the people. Our society simply is not the "rule of the mob," or the majority: It's a complex balancing act between constitutional principles, legal precedents, popular opinion and representative government. The courts have an extremely important part in the process, and to toss out the "those darn courts" argument suggests to me that you don't really understand how we're governed. Consider this: Should we have waited until the Southern states voted (through their legislatures) to end segregated schools? Or was the Supreme Court correct in striking down that travesty? Sometimes constitutional issues trump the smaller constituencies of individual states.

Can’t say we weren’t warned:

II Timothy 3:1- 5 NIV "But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God—— having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them."

I Timothy 4:1 NIV "The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."

Here is other fun quote from the Bible: "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,' when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye. Luke 6:41-42

I also don't understand how so many of the same “Christians” who are so vehemently against gay marriage are for the Iraq War. Ever read this seldom used quote from the Bible? "Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. Matthew 26:52 Or maybe the following favorite? "You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth. But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. Matthew 5:38-39

Thank God (yes, that God) that we live in a country where Bible quoting fundamentalist don’t have the last say in how we must live our lives.

“The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.” 1 Timothy 4:1 NIV

These must be the people who like American Idol.

Wayne:

Job 21:3 "Suffer me that I may speak; and after that I have spoken, mock on."

There is a day or reckoning coming!

Hebrews 4:13 "Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of Him to whom we MUST give account."

TCThank you, I will mock on.Ah yes, a quote for every occasion. How about using quotes to protest the Iraq War? They seem to fit. Rarely used quotes, such as, "You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth. But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.” (Matthew 5:38-39) or maybe, “Then Jesus said to him, "Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword.” (Matthew 26:52) No, according to your religion, it is much more “Christian” to be for the war but against gay marriage. This is the scariest part of Christian fundamentalism.I too believe a day of reckoning will come; for those that used God’s word to justify war and bigotry.

T.C.'s posts remind me of the story of a newly-deceased person who was being given a tour of his new heavenly abode by St. Peter. In one place there was a huge brick wall, with signs posted in large letters saying "QUIET, PLEASE!"

"What's on the other side of that wall?" he whispered. St. Peter replied, "oh, that's where all the Christian fundamentalists are. They think they're the only ones up here!"

Wayne:

Luke 22:36-38 (in part) NIV "He (Jesus) said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one......"

"The disciples said, 'See, Lord, here are two swords.' 'That is enough,' he replied."

Well, whatdaya know - the Prince of Peace - giving permission for his followers to purchase a little protection - a couple of swords (which of course would correspond to - let’s say, a couple of handguns today).

Could it be that Jesus - if He was God incarnate on earth today, would be a member in good standing of the NRA? Just speculating!

T.C., so you are admitting that the Bible contradicts itself? That's an unexpected bit of candor from you!

(Or is this one of those cases where scholars have to turn the text into pretzels to make them fit together?)

and Jesus said that he did not come to bring peace but the the sword. ( Isaw that in a classic French film.)
But was not Luke the only one who never laid eyes on Jesus, and his entire gospel is collected material?

Isabell, that's correct about Luke. Some of his sources were very good, others, not so good. There is a lot of material in Luke that is almost identical to large sections of Matthew, and are believed to be derived from a very early, and probably fairly reliable source. Whether the above quotations are part of that material or not, I'd have to look up.

Of course we know - or should know, that what comes forth from a sovereign, all-knowing, all powerful God will be perfect in every way, so .... we can expect what He authored to be the same way.

"Because the Bible is God's Word and God cannot lie (Isaiah 55:11; John 17:17; Titus 1:2; Hebrews 4:12), it's totally trustworthy, free from any error. God's Word is described as "the word of truth" (Colossians 1:5; 2 Timothy 2:15; James 1:18). Inerrancy isn't a theory about the Bible; it's the teaching of the Bible itself."

“What most people claim as errors in the Bible aren't errors but difficulties. People think they've stumbled upon apparent inconsistencies when they haven't taken the time to find out all the facts, or made an in-depth study of the passage. Many Bible questions have been answered as new discoveries have been made in fields such as language, history, archeology, and other sciences.”

“Regardless of the kind of difficulty found, not a single irreconcilable error can be found in the Bible's pages.”

(10 Objections to Christianity... Frank Harber, author .... Copyright © 2000 Christianity Today)

TC

First, thank you for pointing out the relativism of the Bible.

In Luke (22:36-38), Jesus said to have a sword, not to use it. When a sword was used by one of Jesus’ followers, he was told to put it where it belongs by Jesus. Matthew (26:51-52). Wow! Not exactly a ringing endorsement for the NRA, but keep trying to work the Bible to fit your personal views. There’s a quote for everyone and every occasion!

Also, citing another fundamentalist (who, like you, probably eats pork and shell fish and cuts his hair and beard and hasn’t stoned anyone for not keeping the Sabbath holy) does not help with your credibility.

T C....getting back to the topic...do you believe homosexuality is a choice? That people just decided they would be gay and live their life that way?

Using the Bible to defend your argument is such a cop out in a debate! Why not found your arguments on logic. Seriously. Logically, why not? Why not legalize gay marriage? Is the sky going to fall?

Half a century ago, white people fought the same fight against blacks, quoted scriptures about armageddon, etc. Did the sky fall? NO.

The world will not end because society chose to be fair. Quit being irrational and be human for a moment. How would it feel to you if someone denied you equality simply because THEY held a religious belief that contradicted so. Equality is a BASIC HUMAN RIGHT, not a privilege for heterosexuals.

I EMBRACE THE GAY COMMUNITY! CONGRATS, AND GOOD LUCK!

DW I don't claim to know how everything is governed. I simply don't think it is right to put something out for us to vote on when we really have no say if some judicial panel can just come and overturn it in favor of their own beliefs.

Gay marriage is just another road sign on "The Highway To Hell" and they made it wide to accomodate all those that choose to take that route.

I am still wondering why the Bible is even mentioned in this argument.
Marriage is NOT a religious event in America. If it was then no one would need government permission, i.e. a marriage license. Marriage is a legal circumstance/position. Certain privileges come with the position. The separation of church & state was declared long ago. If the church folks quit looking at marriage as a religious position they cannot argue against gay marriage. It would actually be unChristian to argue against gay marriage. They argue God loves all his children. They proclaim God made us in his own likeness. DUH! God created gay people same as he created heterosexual people. Numerous studies show gay people do not choose homosexuality. Given the hardships associated with homosexuality, why would anyone make that choice?
And the argument gay marriages lessen or harm heterosexual marriage, just how weak is YOUR marriage that 2 guys marrying would destroy it?

In some European countries only marriage before the registry (magistrate) is legal. Religious ceremony is an additional option.

My marriage of many years had enough problems without being shook up by what homosexuals do or not do.

I would never have played house without the legal protection of marriage. One could wind up having invested everything and wind up with nothing.

And people should keep their nose out of people's mating...period.

To Isabell Lawson:

Thanks for that wish that gays and the religious right would annihilate each other while you fiddle. I dare say I recall your pronounced Austrian (German? Northern European?) accent when the two of us were class mates at Fresno State. It make me think that you very well may have been able to immigrate to the United States because you married an American. So, does that mean that now that YOU have secured your benefit of marriage, the rest of the world can go to hell?

I've seen what you've written here and in other posts, and having known you personally, sat side-by-side with you in Dr. Pickering's creative writing class, listened to you intelligent insights, admired your grasp of common sense, well, I must say I find your retreat to "I-don't-care" land in contrast to the inspiring woman I knew.

What you've just said is that you don't care about the citizenship rights of someone who would fight to the death for yours. Fiddle indeed!

Personal attacks and engaging in personalities is not my style.
Nor being indiscreet.

And the wedlock of homosexuals is still extremely low on my
agenda as a member of human society. And I pay little attention
to the ranting of the Christian Right, who by the way, are most
un-Christian in their judgmental intolerance.

My social conscience moves in different directions.
Hungry children, the unemployed because their jobs have been
sent to cheap-labor countries. The aged who, after lifelong
contribution to the wellbeing of the nation, are now finding that
their golden years have turned to brass, covered with the verdigris
of poor health care and dire want.

Yes, I married an American. I had to come here because my dream
boat was far too undereducated to make a living over there. As
for me, the wife, to be the breadwinner was culturally unacceptable
to him.

I should be grateful that Mr. Foster did not post my phone number on
billboards across America.

And this concludes my participation in, this, what is called a BLOG.
But it was a great three weeks, and I got to read the opinion of
earnest folk living in this community.

And to you all, a happy and successful blogging!

please Isabell, don't leave us, I think you are a treasure, and this 'blog' surely benefits from your worldly experiences and pragmatic humane insights.