I agree with the curfew. I hate watching damn emo-boys walking around in girl pants and talking shiz to people trying to shop or go to the movies. I feel like stomping the crud out of those kids when they sass me. I wish they banned every emo-kid from River Park. Let them have Manchester Mall.

I'm not a fan of the little emo kids either, but I just can't make sense of a curfew for a place like River Park.

Part of the whole shopping-center culture is kids sitting around doing nothing.

Another question: How the heck are they going to enforce it? Are they gonna card people?

The rent-a-cops' will enforce the curfew. Last weekend I witnessed a security guard harassing a few teenage girls. I was sitting at slices, enjoying my stromboli while I noticed what was going on. A female security guard was waltzing around with walkie talking in hand.. She was using it as a pointing device. She told a few girls that they needed to leave, and that "this place is not for kids".. seemingly for no reason. One of the kids replied 'Our parents are sitting in borders they're here with us'. The security guard muttered something to them I don't remember what it was, But it got me laughing. I could sense the security guard was enjoying her job. Positions of "power", no matter how pitiful they may be, will most always be abused.

Gotta love how most people kept their mouths shut about this. Shouldn't our elected officials have had the best interest of our under 18 friends in mind? Or are they ignored until they're able to vote? lol

Ah yes... I remember being just about 18 years old and thinking I was so cool to be at River Park drinking the Jamba and people watching... 8 years later I find the behavior I thought SO cool way back when, kinda annoying.

I don't think there's really a problem, it's just those of the younger generation (realizing that I'm not that far away from them) sometimes have a lack of respect for those around them.

Has there been an increase of inappropriate behavior after 6pm? And do city officials honestly think the under 18 year olds will actually listen to their parents?

Unfortunately, it's a double edged sword. I tend to avoid River Park because of the obnoxious teens ( don't get me wrong, I'm not all that pleased with the obnoxious AND drunk 21-30 crowd either), so they tend to lose patrons, such as myself ( people going there for the purpose to spend money). However, I also recognize that there is nowhere in Fresno for teens to hang out.

A curfew is not a bad idea, but 6pm seems drastic. Also, how does this apply to teens who are simply going to see a movie and get a bite to eat? I certainly understand not wanting a group of teens simply loitering about, but couples or small groups who have money and hand and a destination in mind are usually called customers.

i really don't agree with this, simply because its kinda against the point. i mean these kids are just going to these places to be...well....kids. the whole point of being young is to be kinda stupid, and to be able to have the option of figuring that out on their own. some do, some don't. i know i did...i remember being there and being 'young' (aka stupid). but i don't remember any limits or restrictions of being such back then. so why now?

i don't know if this makes sense to a reader, but i mean what can you do? no kid, emo or not, is gonna respond to this like 'oh, i understand...' if anything, the shopping center will become a target now. i mean, if we can't tolerate the kids being what they think is 'themselves' (albeit only a phase...), doesn't that say something about us?

lighten up Fresno...

come on, do we really have to be so bothered? Any other metro area that i have been to has these same stupid kids, but the people around are 'grown up' enough not to pay them any mind. its people like this...the one's who are just OUT to take privelages away (and call it improving lifestlye) that should be banned.

let the kids be kids!

all i have to say is go figure. leave it to Fresno...i wonder what our wonderful city officials will come up with next?

but while we're at it, can we do something about those damn pants that boys are wearing??? geesh, it looks painful.

Maybe the teens should come down to the Fulton Mall. (A REAL mall, not prefabricated.) Maybe they should come down to the thrift stores on Van Ness. Maybe they should come down Tommy's or MILANO to eat. Maybe they should shop at the little stores at the old Gottschalk's Building. Maybe they should just look at one of the top public art displays in the country.

Maybe they should enlist their parents, and have them do the same. You know, like an economic boycott. The only thing RiverPark will understand is a loss of revenue. (Gee, I wonder why Edwards lets them stay)

DAM!!!!! More of FRESNOS stupid ass "rules", dam they been doing this forever, thats what killed Manchester Center (..............who remembers Home Express??). They do this all the time!!! You can watch a movie but you can't walk around.......huh????? No ones been killed, its just the old folk complaining, can you please stop killing the cool s*#$t!!!!! You going to get some "Top Flight" rent-a-cops beat up cause you know they gonna be harrassing the youngins. Fresno........you killed cruising,you killed one mall, you killed all the good clubs & YOU are the reason this place is called BORING!!!!!!
Fresno's bigger than the state capital but we act like the size of Monson (Tulare Co.). Get it togethor!!!!!!!!!

I think a six curfew is silly too but why do you guys have to play the "That's Fresno" card? That's just a lazy throw away quote. You think there aren't curfews ANYWHERE else?

It's just River Park being River Park (now THAT'S a more appropiate lazy quote).

Stupid!!!

This is probably the worst idea ever. Wonder why teens end up givng birth at a young age? Because they have nowhere to go. When I was younger, I would look forward to just walk at the mall and visit Borders. Taking this away from the teenagers will just probably increase one thing - babies.

Think about it! I say no to the curfew. Oh yah, and I work at River Park, so...keep the kids coming!

Has anyone checked on the overall legality of this?

I know it's technically private property, but can you really ban consumers of any age from being, well, consumers.

Many would argue these kids aren't consuming, rather, loitering. Not every day, tho. Kids who are just hanging out on a Tuesday are drinking Jamba Juice on Wednesday and seeing a movie on Thursday.

Are they really telling us that the cute 17 year old valedictorians from Clovis West are going to be sent away from their dinner date at Yoshinos?

Or are the security guards going to profile who they remove?

And good question before...will they be carding the youth, asking for 'papers please?'

What will be the response if the youth disagree with the order to leave the property? Trespassing arrest? Which will involve the Fresno Police. Which means they're not going to be patrolling during the two hours' time it'll take to transport the children, lodge those into jail who need to be, and then write the reports.

What also happens first time one security officer meets up with three 17 year olds with attitudes who demand the officer to 'make us move.' Fight? Who wins in that scenario? The teen provoked into committing assault? The reputation of River Park? The vendors and businesses who now have a fight in front of their store rather than kids walking up and down the sidewalk?

This ruling probably made sense to a bunch of older people, business-owners included, inside a vacuum-sealed closed room.

I have a feeling the future of this proposal is going to be quite dreary for both River Park and the businesses that count on courting customers.

Barnes and Noble's music sales will drop. Restaurants will see lower sales. The aforementioned Jamba Juice, Me N Ed's Slices, the candy shop, and the surf-wear shop must be joining Edward's Cinema's in protest of this ruling.

TV advertisors focus on the teen dollar for a reason...because they have it and it's expendable.

Nice job, River Park. Reap that which you have sown. My dollar will be joining the teen dollar....across the street.

My sister called to tell me about the new River Park rules yesterday. My daughter and 8 of her friends were being dropped off to see a 7:25pm showing of "1408" (which was....just ok in case you were wondereing). She didn't know when the rule started, so I was voted designated adult to go with them.

My observations of last night were:

Full theater with lots of teens.
Full common area (grass, planters, etc.) with lots of people. A mixture of teens, parent and younger kids, couples in their 50s, families with kids in elementary school.

Common theme? Enjoying an evening out in some nice Fresno summer weather.

Security guards? Well....they were there. They were talking to each other, sitting and eatting pizza, talking to a table of 50-60 year old ladies in front of Jamba Juice.

Slices had a line out the door. Jamba Juice had a line out the door.

Borders had people in and out. Does everyone who goes into Borders make a purchase? Doubtful. I'm 46 and I don't have disposable income, I have a 15 yr old ha. I go in and look but not buy on a regular basis.

The only plus to the new rule was that I was allowed to go see the movie with the kids. No, we sat in different rows which was fine with me. Do I want to do this every time my child wants to be with her friends? No.

What I didn't see last night was gang activity, smoking, loud, foul language anyone.

Someone made a point about the drunk 20-30 years old. Um.....no, they weren't sitting around outside in the common areas. But don't walk into Sports Bar. BUT....it's a free country and I would have rather been at the bar personally ha.

Is it legal? Well....privately owned property is privately owned property and you do have some wiggle room to make up your own rules. Most public places have a rules of conduct list that the public must abide by.

How are they going to enforce it? Best of luck on that one! How about the 19 year old who looks 12? Or the 16 year old who looks 20? Will you have to pass through a gated area and show ID? If you are 18 but in high school and aren't driving yet and have your school ID, do you have to bring your birth certificate with it?

Just crazy. But....I know there are other places who will welcome the tax dollars.

Saying that "I won't go to Riverpark at night because the teens are scary" makes as much sense to me at those who stay away from downtown or the Tower for the same reasons.

Reasons I don't go to Riverpark that often is:
It's a bit of a drive and gas is expensive.
I can see new releases at um....well you know.....
I am not a typical "shopper" but one who goes into buy that one thing and gets the heck out of there.
Most of what they have is also located in other areas of Fresno/Clovis.
Parking is usually a pain.
They are the in the middle of construction (see above).

OH, after the movie was over and the kids were going to Jamba Juice. (8 kids x $5 a drink.....do the math), I was starving. I wanted to go to Lennies, sit on the patio and have a snack. They were closed. Who closes up a food place at 9pm on a Friday night?

Mike, can you please mention to the person who takes care of the Fresno BEE online shopping pages that they are terribly out of date??

Thanks.

G

FYI. this is coming from a 36 yo married broad with kids.

I think this is garbage.
I love seeing the kiddies milling around. I like seeing them interact. It nice that they HAD a place to hang out.
My favorite part of weekend evenings was the energy they brought to the place. They didnt get in your way or act rude. They were just being teens.
Well.. welcome back to the other Malls, kids. Your money will be welcomed there.
I plan to have a NO FRIDAY OR SATURDAY EVENING SPENDING Boycott of River Park. I can find good places to eat in The Tower or by F.F. or even in CLOVIS.
There are lots of places on West Shaw, too.
Say Bye to our weekend evening dollars.

This was my most favorite part of the story....

Daniel Spilfogel, owner of Lenny's Bistro-Deli, said he looks forward to the restrictions on teens.

"I do have customers who tell me they avoid it here because of the kids and crowds," he said Friday as teens walked past his restaurant.

Spilfogel said he does decent business during the day, but by 7 p.m. -- especially on weekends when mobs of teens flood into the center -- his customers disappear.

You cant get decent service at Lennys if you waved around a fist full of hundreds and begged. We dont go there because they stink. You wait an HOUR for your food and you gotta send it back for some reason. Its not the kids that ruined it. Its his bad managment skills.
( Hi Geanie and Stephen)

I came out last night and watched the action. Here is a couple of things that amazed me.

The large number of Homeless kids that use the mall as the shakedown place.
A group of about 45 kids were looking for a place to fight; all the while security was all over the place preventing the incident. PD will not respond until there is actually a fight.
Friday night is a bigger problem than Saturday night for the business owners. I counted approximately 130 kids without chaperones just "hanging out."

Hanging out can be define as just sitting around and visiting. That is not the end all. The rest of it is the obnoxious behavior, vile language, pushing/shoving, etc. that leaves an adult like myself not interested in coming out to River Park on the weekend evening and spending my money. Sorry, I grew up and I do not need to be around other people's unsupervised teenagers.

The problem apparently peaks around 8:30 in the evening.

I spoke at length with an employee of River Park who told me that their will be no restrictions on Movie goers. Further he added that the problem of the entertainment mall extends out to other areas of the center. The parking lots are the gathering and hiding places for kids to get high. Kids indulging in sexual activity in the most hidden of areas. Cruisers circle like vultures looking for young girls (I am assuming) since I did witness a drunk yell from his car to a young boy to take off his pants.

Parents, you need to come out and spend an evening at River Park to see why the program is being put into effect. It is for the protection of your own children. But I suspect most of you do not come out because you already know what it is like. It had been three years since I last came out to River Park on a weekend evening. My conclusion, hanging out at River Park is not a right of passage, River Park is a business that cannot live on Jamba Juice and Slices alone.

Stephen Aguirre, what mall were you at, exactly???

45 fighting kids?? Homeless kids doing shakedowns? Kids indulging in sexual activity and drug use in the most hidden of areas in the parking lot??

I had to call my friend who works security there. He suggests that you might have been smoking something to have seen what you describe.

Are you SURE you're talking about River Park?? I go there quite often, and haven't been asked for change ONCE. I go to the Tower District every day and get asked for change (which I don't mind).

45 kids looking to fight, which security was all over preventing?? Never seen it, but it might have been one of those things.

Sexual activity by kids in the most hidden of places? How did YOU find them, then? Where else are kids s'posed to make out? And yes, it's okay for kids to make out, fyi.

Doing drugs in the parking lot??? Hm.

I'm still unsure how ejecting the Clovis West valedictorians is going to prevent any of the activity you described.

Seems like River Park is ALREADY set up to eject those who are running scams, doing drugs, having illegal sexual activity, or looking to fight.

However, the 94% of other kids who hang out there are now being banned.

KUDOS to Celena for calling it like it is at Lenny's. Just not a well-run place at all, considering they're surrounded by other choices for dining experiences.

While discussing the new rules that are to go into affect on August 3rd, a comment was made that it could all be part of a marketing ploy?

Do you think that could be it? Drum up lots of Riverpark conversations, then back track with...."oh now, we realize it wasn't going to work and welcome everyone."???

Also, doesn't the city of Fresno have general 10pm curfew for those under 18? Reading the original story that parents leave their minors alone till midnight is already a violation of the law. That, you'd think would have been addressed in general some time ago.

If Riverpark was stupid enough to set the curfew as a marketing ploy it backfired. From a PR standpoint you don't make a controversial rule only to have to spin your bad press into something good. Shame on you, Riverpark.

The movies are open to all ages all the time. Borders, Jamba Juice and Slices is open to all ages all the time. A fairly large area near Jamba Juice and another in front of the theater are open to to all ages all the time.

Just an area that the teens insist on clogging will be curfewed.

Also loitering teens hiding in the parking structure or behind Edwards getting loaded will also be curfewed out.

Makes sense to me!! Get the facts brats.

So let's see, Fresco...only teens loitering will now be curfewed out?

But not teens who say they're going to Jamba, Slices, Borders or Edwards? So teens that aren't going to those places, you figure they won't be smart enough to say 'oh, we were just going there?'

And does this mean teens going to Lenny's or Rocky Mountain Choc, or Yoshinos, they'll be allowed to stay all unattended by a parent or guardian?

And how is security gonna know the difference??

There are already laws against loitering, and this is NOT what River Park released to the public. They said 6/18. If it's after 6pm and you're under 18, you will be subject to a private property curfew and asked to leave by security guards if you are not accompanied by a parent or guardian.

Teens getting loaded illegally behind Edwards are already subject to arrest....why would they be 'curfewed out?' Teens having illegal relations are already breaking the law.

A teen curfew must affect ALL under 18 youth or it's discriminatory and subject to legal challenge.

Oh, no, River Park business owners. You made your bed. You can't pick and choose the hispanic, african american or white trashy folk you don't think 'belong.'

You've got a curfew now, brothahs!

And I cannot WAIT til River Park security cards and then ejects Edison High straight A students who are hanging out chatting up some girls after they just saw a movie and enjoyed their time at Borders.

Hey, River Park? Can you say 'lawsuit??'

Dude, what's up with the straight A student stuff? You do know that your little 'dictorians do drugs and have sex and curse and cause trouble as much as the next guy. Just 'cause they play straight in front of the old folks don't make them good people. Pretty much the rule is that they just haven't been caught yet.

Kids are having sex in the parking lot and getting high (is this at the same time?)? Damn where was Riverpark when I was a kid? All I had was an almond orchard and a six pack of natural light.

As much as the kids annoy me there, I'm not sure if this is enforceable. Yeah it is private property, but you can't detain a person and call their mommy cause they are just standing around.

And isn't there a 10:00 city wide curfew already? Watch these kids take their money and go to Fashion Fair. That'd make me chuckle just a bit.

But Riverpark has gotten full of itself. All the construction going on and yet there are still empty spaces to rent. But hey keep building, I don't mind parking in the Ranchos and then walking to RP.

Majority of the opinions above just discussed how the kids wont be able to go to movies, go to slices, borders and so forth. First let me clarify the ban - Borders, Slices, Edwards are all exempt from the ban - kids can go to these stores (without adult supervision) after the curfew hours. The curfew mainly target the common areas where the kids hang and may or may not bother other people.
I was against the ban, but after i heard the complete story on the radio show, i kinda agree with the ban. the businesses at the River park pay a huge amount of rent to be at the prime location and if their customer base is affected by any element, they will try to minimize it. Me and my wife stopped going to the River park just because it started to resemble the junior high playground.

I'm a 28 year old, and it sure gets to be a drag when ADULTS who want to have a night out on "date night" are waiting in lines for 90 minutes while kids are pouring out left and right. I tend to avoid Fresno altogether because River Park is way to big and never has enough parking stalls. I'm finding myself going to Visalia or Hanford because of the calmness I see in those towns. Sure, it gets busy there as well, but it's not always scores of kids that have you waiting.

I am a 17 year old teenager and I have personally talked to all of the businesses at RP and have learned their opinions. To be honest, I feel bad for some of the businesses and I can definitely understand where they are coming from. But now it's their turn to understand where I'm coming from. I am not allowed to cruise down main street. I can't be out past 10:00 pm. Fashion Fair closes at 9:00. WHERE ARE WE SUPPOSED TO GO!? Face it. there is nothing for teenagers to do in Fresno! Some would say, stay at home and spend time with family or read a book. I see my family everyday and every night; I spend much of my time reading. I'm a teenager and sometimes I just need a break. If Rod Anaforian wants to kick us out, he'd better suggest alternative activities or he can rest assured that he will have a very large group of ostracized and pissed of teenagers on his hands

Isn't it called, 'Loitering' what many of these underaged kids are doing at River Park? It's NOT up to responsible adults, store owners and the police/security to babysit these kids that parents drop off for a few hours (to get them out of their hair), or whatever. I'm guessing a decent percentage of these kids aren't out to spend money, aside from the slices of pizza everyone is talking about. When I visit River Park it's because I have a plan, to eat, purchase listening/reading materials, etc. I don't go to River Park to loiter.

I'm personally tired of seeing MANY of these kids, note I didn't say 'ALL', act disrespectful to adults as well as their peers, cursing, etc. I can tell you about fiftenn plus incidents during the past year where underaged kids are cursing, being loud, etc. inside Borders alone. And these kids come in all shapes, sizes, attire.

Perhaps the curfew could be a little later, perhaps 7 or 8 pm but no later. Am I wrong or is the new rule for the weekends only? If so, then why all the complaining, kids still have the weekday nights available if they so choose.

I enjoy reading all of the other comments and opinions.

i thake it's sad thay makeing new law's on teens in this nice place just becouse a few bad kids not all teenagers are kids are there to get rendy of the hight class people afther all some of the kids come form upper class familys to i bet and not all lower class kids are there to start terobile to and the emo thing it was the punkrockes to in the past that get target now the emo's it's to see grow people use the bee web site with all this hate of emo kids now on comment. just note thay are kids. o yes hate kills to ok just one thing briandeneke got killed for being a punkrocker are how coung for get about the poor kid how got killed by his school peers in fresno that happen in noverber.1.2006 one thing to note where all teens to at one time we where to right. i hope not all oider people donot hate teens becouse it makes theme look oider be happy how we are i like the story i stall got my copy of the news paper its just one i have to keep goldfiger

There is the already mentioned city wide 10 pm curfew. People forget there were places before River Park. RP was the nice new thing and that trend is old and its not the only place in fresno to spend $$$. Fashion Fair has cleaned up nicely! There is also downtown Fresno and maybe if consumers paid attention to other areas it would force city council to pay attention as well as other businesses and help them to realize the potential for growth...

Hey David, How about you learn how to type and spell like an adult before you go spouting off?

I'm an adult parent of teenagers, and I DO support the curfew. I'm a semi-regular at Borders, and I've had it with all the children wandering in and out of the store, clogging the aisles, and making it difficult for actual customers to move around. I don't like to have to wade through all the kids loitering around just to get to one of the stores.

It seems that every other time that I'm there, there's some kind of incident that requires the Police to come in and arrest somebody.

Stephen: Maybe you should take a class in California Laws, and pay attention to PC602(k), PC647(h), and PC647c. Also Fresno Municipal Codes 8-128 and 8-129 are interesting.

As of this moment, Smokey, those teens are neither trespassing, prowling, or blocking streets or sidewalks.

They are invited guests at a shopping establishment.

The current curfew for minors is 10pm. I think that's a reasonable time to ask minors to leave River Park.

A shopping mall is neither a place of amusement or entertainment, by the way, but still, underage teens are not to be at River Park without guardian after 10pm anyway.

This curfew idea, Smokey, and your statutes, make my point clearly. It is clearly against existing California law and Fresno City Muni code to create a curfew for minor children prior to 10pm.

As I've said before, it is ALREADY against the law to loiter, to do drugs, to have illegal and/or illicit sex in public, or to defame or violate people and their property.

Teens who do any of the above things should be properly removed or arrested as need be.

Those in violation of curfew EXCEPT for those leaving the movie theater should be cited as well.

What River Park WAS proposing is likely illegal, bad PR, and just bad form....as even Ed Kashian has discovered.

Children clogging aisles at Borders eventually buy things. Maybe not the day you are there (without your own children, it seems), but they will buy eventually.

I'd like to hear how your own children feel about being told they don't belong somewhere. I assume your children are good kids, who don't break the law. You understand your angels were ALSO being ordered off property, whether they were shopping and spending money or not, at 6pm sharp.

It was a bad decision, and I'm glad it's gone.